Talk about anything and everything Squad-related here -- what you've been playing, what you're looking forward to, and how big your Pile of Shame has grown after that last Steam sale...
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Calin Kim

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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by Calin Kim » Thu Sep 03, 2015 5:06 pm

Angry Jedi wrote:There was that "briefing" thing that went on for hours. Probably quicker to play the games! :)

I started replaying MGS a while back and got through 1 (man, that hasn't aged brilliantly) and 2 (that has, particularly in HD) but stalled near the beginning of 3 for some reason. I should get back to them, and if there's likely to be Peace Walker co-op action at some point (PS3?) I may well be interested in giving it a go -- I want to beat 3 before I do that, though.


I completely agree that the first one has not aged super well. I have played through it so many times that I practically have it memorized, but it looked even worse than I remember.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by RedSwirl » Thu Sep 03, 2015 8:54 pm

I played the PS1 version of MGS1 for the first time while going through the whole series back in 2008 right before MGS4 came out. More importantly, I went into it for the first time coming right out of the MSX games, and I was astounded at how similar it was to Metal Gear 2. That's when I realized MGS1 and 2 mechanically make much more sense when you approach them like 2D games. The soliton radar is basically your top-down Pac-Man screen.

Going straight into MGS3 is actually a rather large adjustment coming straight off of the previous two games. It's the first one that actually wants you to observe your three-dimensional environment as well as take both sight and sound into account at all times. I think it's the point where Metal Gear started to head from "game" into "simulator" territory. The current incarnation of this you see in MGSV is philosophically not too far off from Thief.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by A.I Impaired » Thu Sep 03, 2015 9:27 pm

I agree the first 2 MSG games are mostly 2D gameplay experiences, but so too was 3 in it's original snake eater form. It sported a 2D overhead camera but was plagued with the inability to see enemies very far without going first person. Subsistence was kojimas experiment in making mgs 3D in camera, and it changed the whole experience for the better. He actually had claimed 3d cameras made him motion sick and that he disliked using them. He kinda was dragged into it. That said I think the jungle needed this camera but the grid like warehouse/insustrial settings of the other games play fine without, though the soliton radar kinda cheats.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by A.I Impaired » Fri Sep 04, 2015 8:33 pm

A.I Impaired wrote: the first 2 MSG games
Ow my stomach lining.
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Angry Jedi

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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by Angry Jedi » Fri Sep 04, 2015 10:25 pm

Aside: I mentioned this on my blog the other day, but I have to say, everything I've heard about MGSV so far sounds like the exact opposite of what I want from an MGS game. Sandboxes and emergent narrative and whatnot are cool, but they're not the reason I come to MGS. I'm one of the people who enjoys Kojima's batshit "I'm makin' movies!" craziness, and while I'm sure there's some of that in Phantom Pain, it sounds an awful lot more like Splinter Cell than Metal Gear. I hate Splinter Cell.

I'll still try it when I'm done with replaying the earlier games, but I'm in no hurry while the hype train is in motion.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by RedSwirl » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:08 am

Angry Jedi wrote:Aside: I mentioned this on my blog the other day, but I have to say, everything I've heard about MGSV so far sounds like the exact opposite of what I want from an MGS game. Sandboxes and emergent narrative and whatnot are cool, but they're not the reason I come to MGS. I'm one of the people who enjoys Kojima's batshit "I'm makin' movies!" craziness, and while I'm sure there's some of that in Phantom Pain, it sounds an awful lot more like Splinter Cell than Metal Gear. I hate Splinter Cell.

I'll still try it when I'm done with replaying the earlier games, but I'm in no hurry while the hype train is in motion.


Honestly the level design feels even wider and more open than Splinter Cell. Phantom Pain so far is reminding me of Crysis 1, which I found to strike a great balance between hand-crafted levels and open-ended gameplay. To assume Phantom Pain is some kind of GTA/Elite thing that throws itself completely into the emergent dice rolls though is a bit wrong. When you start a main mission the game slices up an enclosed "zone" from the larger sandbox that turns out to be a fully hand-crafted "level." It's just that now those levels are crafted to allow players to figure out their own solutions.

But I get it. The way a lot of people are reacting to MGSV, it's starting to sound like "Metal Gear for people who don't like Metal Gear." I'm totally enjoying it, but not as a part of the Metal Gear saga, and I've been fine with that.

Have you played Portable Ops or Peace Walker at all? I think the biggest reason Phantom Pain is a huge shock to so many Metal Gear fans is because the last Metal Gear they played was MGS4, or even 3. Phantom Pain is the sequel to Peace Walker and Portable Ops. Those two games are where Kojima started developing the overall gameplay system you see here in Phantom Pain: the main ops and side ops (which are basically main quests and side quests), and most importantly the Mother Base system. I guess people just passed those off as spinoff games, many even not even knowing they're canonical and that Peace Walker's story is just as integral as any numbered game (because it originally was a numbered game). Nobody really accepted their format was the new face of Metal Gear. Looking back, games like MGS2 and MGS3 honestly feel like they're from another era to me, design-wise. So does the hype that surrounded them to be honest.

I went over this in my own blog, but the mega hype surrounding Phantom Pain perplexed me. Other than maybe the next console Zelda I'm not sure I'll ever feel that way about a major boxed Japanese product again. Since MGS4 came out in 2008 we've had the industry explode so far beyond the sphere of boxed console games with Minecraft or F2P or mobile, that franchises like Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, and Resident Evil just don't feel as big in proportion anymore, even if they're selling as many copies as ever (or more). When people got hyped, I mean really hyped, for a new Resident Evil or Final Fantasy, PlayStation represented almost half of gaming worldwide, so those games felt like the biggest events in the entire culture. Now they just feel like all the other events. In the boxed console game space only Grand Theft Auto really carries that kind of weight anymore. Maybe Bethesda's games too since Skyrim sold like 30 million copies.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by RedSwirl » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:36 am

Left a comment on Pete's blog trying to explain in more detail how much the franchise has changed since MGS3.
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Alex Connolly

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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by Alex Connolly » Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:41 am

I thought Portable Ops was awesome. That seems like a minority view. One of the first games I ever played a substantial amount of time online with. Even bought Portable Ops+. That was an interesting time.

I love the concepts and design in Metal Gear more than I dig the actual games. AC!D series the exception. What brilliant games, if a tad easy once you break out a killer deck.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by RedSwirl » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:01 am

Alex Connolly wrote:I thought Portable Ops was awesome. That seems like a minority view. One of the first games I ever played a substantial amount of time online with. Even bought Portable Ops+. That was an interesting time.

I love the concepts and design in Metal Gear more than I dig the actual games. AC!D series the exception. What brilliant games, if a tad easy once you break out a killer deck.


I thought Portable Ops was cool at the time too, but a lot of people just couldn't deal with having only one analog stick. Portable Ops+ was actually a pretty interesting random mission generator.
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Re: Cult of Kojima, Rise in respect. Our time is nigh.

by Alex Connolly » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:18 am

It's always puzzled me beyond the completely customisable controls -- you could tweak it to play pretty much as Syphon Filter or a first-person shooter! -- that Portable Ops got such a retrospective rap. It had so many cool ideas, and did the whole Fulton capture mechanic before Peace Walker with the truck business. Unwieldy, sure, but still awesome to build up a war machine of soldiers, military intelligence and an R&D division. Loved wandering around the neighbourhood on my way home from work, 'capturing' personnel from open WiFi signals and access points. It was completely arbitrary, but I thought it was so awesome when walking past a clinic and snagged a medic.

Great game.
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